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Graham Crew is the Chief Operating Officer at Golden Star Resources an established West African gold mining company. Graham is an experienced mining and operations executive with over 20 years in the industry. He is a strong leader who thrives when working in a values driven team environment. Graham has transformed operations in various jurisdictions and cultures through the development of vision, strategy and disciplined implementation. His experience includes construction projects, due diligence, project evaluation and project financing.

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3 Value Bombs

1. Planning the job well, executing the job well, and getting it right the first time as often as you can. It's not something that's outside of what we do every day. It's something that's integral to what we do. And if we're planning well and executing well, we'll have a really productive, high quality workplace.

2. As a leader, modelling the behaviours you want to see is very powerful. Particularly if someone is young and vulnerable they are potentially going to be really influenced by those people around you.  

3. If you want a really positive safety culture, you have to build those muscles so to speak and work on it every day. Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't get to be Mr Universe by not going to the gym every day. You've got to go to the gym every day. You have to get out and you have to engage in it and you have to empower people to deliver it. Sometimes you're not going to get 100 percent right. Even in those circumstances, you need to say, okay, what did we learn from that? What can we do better tomorrow or today? And keep going. It's a journey.

Show Notes

Getting Started

[00:00:01] Welcome to this issue of leading safety, keeping safety real. Our goal is to stretch a safety net of connections across the world through exchange of ideas between organisational leaders. These are the people who influence what thousands of people do every day at work and even at home through the culture they define and believe that permeates through their organisations. In this podcast series, organisational leaders share their personal stories about leading and engaging people in health, safety and wellbeing. We hope that as a business leader, the podcast format will make it easy to listen and pick up some pearls of wisdom. No matter where you are in the car, in a plane, between meetings or with your leadership team, in a constantly changing global tech environment, work, health and safety is one of the many areas executives and board members have to juggle. How do they fit health, safety and wellbeing in with running a successful, complex business? How do they keep it real? Our guests will share with us how they live the values they place in the people who work for them every single day, the challenges they've faced and the super wins they've had that have provided the motivation to keep them in there. It's a personal and real conversation and we know you'll learn something along the way that will help you and hopefully you'll make some great connections as well. So let's chat.

[00:01:20] We're excited to welcome today's guest, Graham Crew, the chief operating officer at Golden Star Resources, an established West African gold mining company. Graham is an experienced mining and operations executive with over 20 years in the industry. He's a strong leader, who thrives when working at a values driven team environment. Graham has transformed operations in various jurisdictions and cultures through the development and vision, strategy and disciplined implementation. His experience includes construction projects, due diligence, project evaluation and project financing. Graham has had some unique experiences managing safety from his operations role, and so we're very keen to chat with him today. So a huge welcome to you Graham and thank you for agreeing to be a guest on our podcast - Leading Safety Keeping Safety Real.

[00:02:10] Thanks, Liz. Looking forward to the chat.

[00:02:12] So, let's start with a bit of a chat around a brief summary of your own safety and wellbeing journey. How does safety and wellbeing fit in to your thinking about how you lead your organisation?

[00:02:23] I think safety and wellbeing are integral. One of the things I've learned is so engaging hearts and minds with a common purpose is where the real organisational magic can happen. It happens rarely. But when it does happen, it's really you know, it's really something to be a part of. So I try not to separate safety and wellbeing from the total person and the total job, if that makes sense.

[00:02:47] Absolutely.

[00:02:48] It makes it really hard to define what is safety. It's doing the job well, planning it well, executing it well the first time and that if you do that, then by definition, the job will be safe.

[00:02:59] potentially that's a great way to start in terms of defining what is safety, incorporating it into the everyday activities. So how did you come to understand what excellent safety leadership looks like? Were there significant events that impacted you or did you have a role model?

[00:03:13] I guess I've been lucky. Safety has always been something that has been important to leaders that I've had. I actually remember my first day heading to an underground project. So, you know, as I was a student and I was doing some vacation work underground. I remember driving to site with the project manager and him sort of explaining to me, make sure you listen, keep your keep your ears and eyes open, you know, listen to the people who are around you and you'll do well. You know, that was first leader I had from an underground perspective. But to this day, I remember the foreman on that job, guy by the name of Dave McNally and one of the things I remember about Dave was him walking into jobs very calmly, very slowly, kind of looking at the job, looking at the whole job and looking at what you were doing, sort of just standing there, taking it all in sort of calmly he might point out, hey, guys, you know, you missed this rock on the wall there or, you know, what about this water here? But to this day, I remember Dave was my first mine foreman. You know, the things he would look out for. So. And then, you know, I think I've been attracted to organisations and leaders that have that value and have made that an important part of the work that's rubbed off on me, if you like, and beyond that I think it just makes good business sense of getting the job right the first time is going, in the long run it's going to be more efficient and it's going to save time and it's going to be a better place to work. So, yes, plenty of leaders I've learned from, but I think overall as an industry, it's something that we've, over my time, we've gotten better and better at recognising and managing. I hope I hope that's the case anyway.

[00:04:52] What a great story to share around the impact of first impressions and how you know when you're young and vulnerable you're going to really be influenced by those people around you and to have had such a great first experience in safety and wellbeing talks a lot about the importance of modelling and how that impacts other people.

[00:05:11] I definitely couldn't agree more. And those people had a, definitely had an impact on me and the way I approach things. I mean, it was a different time. I can tell you stories about that first job of standards that just wouldn't be acceptable today. But the care for the person and the approach was definitely there

Greatest Challenges & Lessons

[00:05:30] That's great. Thank you. How have you gone about building safety into the way you lead now? What are some of the rituals and stories and levers you use in leading safety? What are some of the things that have been most effective that you've seen or used to engage people in safety?

[00:05:47] For me, it's about what is priority. Things I'm trying to do. One is to be visible, so to be in the workplace, not just be in the office and obviously in a role like mine you're not there to supervise the underground work or walk around the plant all day and be the supervisor or the safety manager or the production manager or any of those. It's important to be visible and to demonstrate to people the values of the organisation. Talk about safety being value or a core value then I need to demonstrate that. I try to make it the first thing I talk to people about. I try to engage people in the conversation about what's their job, what are the hazards they have identified, is there anything that they can see that potentially caused them an injury or be a problem for them? And talk about those things and then try to engage them a bit further and conversation about why it's important. One of the things I've found working in different countries and different cultures is we're all very similar in terms of why we work. There's the degree of individual fulfilment, but often it's because we're providing for a family or kids are in school and we want to give them the best education we can and all those things tend to be very, very common. So getting people to link what they're doing on the job on that day to me is it's an important point that that's what I care about. And then we can talk about how well the job's going and the schedule and the production rates or whatever it might be. But if we make how the job's going and how we're managing the hazards my first priority, then that's a signal to them that that's the most important thing from a leader's perspective. So that's what I try to do. I try to make that my sort of go to interaction approach.

[00:07:25] So what I hear a lot there is that visibility and really demonstrating your values consistently. So if you say you value people's safety and wellbeing, then that's actually demonstrating that in the conversations that you're having with them.

[00:07:38] Yeah, That's right. I really like the concept of everybody sort of having their own personal accountability when it comes to managing safety. So it's not there's no one person kind of left on their own, you know. So that person on the job site has got an accountability. But they're also got an accountability of feedback that supervisor or to the engineer that's planned the job where it might be that doesn't quite work for them. And I think that's where we that's often where things become less stable is when we don't communicate and we don't we just assume that the other person intended it that way and I just got to get on with the job. That's where I've seen things go wrong. So that open, that open questioning and open communication I think that's really important. If everyone takes that accountability but then holds each other personally accountable, then in theory we should better get the job right first time.

[00:08:24] That's a really interesting concept around the accountability piece. I think that that's a component of managing and leading safety, that organisations often struggle with is having that good quality accountability piece in there to follow through. Is there any particular tricks from what you've just described there that has helped you embed that accountability consistently?

[00:08:51] To me, it's the hardest thing. There's a balance between empowerment and accountability. And one of the challenges as somebody cares about what happens to people and safety, you know. It's a reality of the mining industry is that it's a hazardous business. We deal with significant energy sources and that that's still a reality and people are a key element of that. It's often something does go wrong. It's often easy to blame the person who was nearest to the incident at the time. And there is a genuine accountability there. Sometimes there's a genuine disregard of what training might say or what procedure might say or what should happen. But to me, that's generally not the case. Finding that balance of accountability so that leaders are having those conversations on a day in, day out basis about what could be done better or what we could learn or what standard we need to apply is it's the most difficult thing, I think, and still the thing that takes the most effort. Holding people accountable is a day in, day out task and getting it right and supervisors seeing the right things and making the right judgments and having the right conversations. There's no trick to that. There's no there's no tip to that. It's just something you have to work out every day and empower leaders to do that and empower your employees to do the right thing as well.

[00:10:13] Fantastic insight. Sort of continuing around that. What's the best feedback you've ever had in relation to your own visible leadership?

[00:10:20] The best feedback I've ever had was probably my experience in Tanzania taking on a challenging mining operation where there had been a history of, let's say, poor safety outcomes and people had been injured. Now, a lot had been done before I got there to try to change that trend right through to changing the mining method. But, you know, it's a big change and big changes are difficult. But one of the things that we identified pretty early on was when we did exercises with people in identifying hazards, they could identify hazards but we were still having incidents. So people were could see the hazard but would carry on to do the job. So there was something there was something in the culture there where getting the job done had got a bigger reward. Whether it be praise or in the culture, you know, it wasn't necessarily more money or but intrinsically there was more reward for getting the job done than just stopping the problem and fixing the hazard. So we really scratched our heads so that we started a program, a campaign, if you like, of stop and fix. I would go underground with the underground manager and we would we would specifically we would target jobs to stop and get the people there to stop the production and scale the drive or hold the drill out and get a loader in there to fix the floor. So because we were trying to teach people that this was okay, it wasn't sort of come down and say, you should know the standard, fix it before you carry on. It was, hey, look, look, this is this is what we're seeing. Help us fix this. And I remember six or eight months into this program and we all of a sudden we had, there was me, the underground manager of the underground superintendents. We had people talking about stop and fix. And I remember coming down to the bottom of the shafts one day, stepping out of the cage and someone painted up a reminder on the wall in sort of metre high letters, remember, stop and fix it. I don't know who painted it. I don't know whether it was one of safety team. I don't know whether it was one of the supervisors or whether it was one of the workers. No idea who painted it, but it was a nicely painted sign reminding people that it was okay to stop and fix. To me, you know, to have people talking about that. To have people coming to the management meeting saying, oh, we stopped this job and fixed it. And they would come in saying we stop the job and would get praise for that more than, you know, we got the job done no matter what. To see that that change happen and be able to talk to truck drivers and have them recount back yeah, yeah, we stop and fix. That's probably the most rewarding by far the most rewarding feedback that I can say that I've ever, ever got.

[00:12:59] Wasn't to me personally. It was us as a leadership team, but it really infused the whole work.

[00:13:05] That's a fantastic story and a great example of working with rather than to makes a really big difference. And having them paint that sign on the wall is just such great reinforcement back to the leadership team that this has been valued by the people around them. Great story.

[00:13:23] Yeah, and it's difficult too right? Sometimes there are times and there are some people who might not be completely on board with, you know the organisation's goals. Who will use the opportunity to stop to avoid work or this. And this is what this is the thing that the supervisors most often. This is where their frustration comes in. It gets the feedback bit is where it gets really, really difficult. And then actually taking on the feedback of someone stop the job when as a leader or a supervisor, you don't see the hazard or the risk in the same way. It's hard work, but you have to give people that opportunity and then convince them it becomes of management, leadership, accountability to convince them that, okay, if we go and if we look at this hazard or this risk objectively, no, it is something we can accept or okay no will we will get more training or we will get a different piece of equipment, whatever it may be, to fix that particular perception. But, yeah, risk perception is such an individual thing and it gets difficult. But you have to be if you don't if you're not prepared to take on that challenge, then you'll only ever have a working to and telling mentality. And I just don't think it'll be successful longer term.

[00:14:32] Yeah, absolutely. Really, really well demonstrated through that. As you say, it's that involving people at every step of the way in terms of them participating in solutions, not just raising an issue. So, that's fantastic. Great example. Where do you think leaders get it wrong then in leading safety? What do you see as some of the common pitfalls?

[00:14:52] First of all, I mean, I'm a naturally positive person. So if anyone that cares about safety. You can't really can't really get it wrong you know, some people do things differently than I would do it in different organisations have different cultures. You know, some are more directive. Some feel that having more systems and more paper trail or whatever it might be is how they want to manage risk. So every organisation is different. So I wouldn't sit here and say my way is the right way or another way is the wrong way. But I guess based on my experience, the challenges that I've experienced is what I call egocentric model, and we touched on this, is where say something goes wrong. There's an incident and there's a person involved in the incident. The last step is tends to be the one we look at. We see that was the last step, then this happened. So therefore, that's the cause and the effect. And that's a really human, that's a really human behaviour to go; I can see exactly what's happened there. That person was there at that time. They made that decision that I've got, I've got the solution. I've got the blame. I discipline that person. I'll write them up, give them a written warning, and terminate them or whatever. I make sure the procedures are updated, and I tell everyone don't you do that again or you'll be disciplined and I go, yeah, that's the end of that. That person mucked up and that's all I have to deal with. That's kind of common egocentric approach. That I think is it sometimes misses the complexity of the cause and effect. What were the behaviours or what were the accepted practices? What were the things that were going on prior to that? What were the deficiencies in the training or the equipment we were using? Whatever it is, the cause is generally a lot more nuanced, a lot more complex. And, you know, the last thing in the same model is, you know, I told them so, you know, we rely on procedures or you know what I've seen a lot in our industries and people get up in a pre-shift meeting and go through all these are these are all the production tasks of the day. And make sure you do it safely. We just put the onus completely on the person to get the job done and get it done safely kind of thing. So, again, it's that balance between empowerment and accountability and making sure I really like to focus on okay if we got the plan right, have we planned for a successful outcome. Have we designed the task? You know the right ways, the easiest way that defaulting to the egocentric model, you know, blaming the last person, standing up and saying get the job done but do it safely. They're the biggest danger I see, because we still need to hold people accountable. Right. So you've got that fall-back position or all I'm doing is holding people accountable to what they're supposed to do.

[00:17:27] But as you say, that's so simplistic, isn't it? In what all of the contributing factors that have led to that event.

[00:17:33] In a dynamic production environment where you're trying to meet targets and you're trying to manage a complex operation with multiple people and an all of that to stop and really understand this incident when it's in five minutes, you can get it done. That's the challenge. And that you know, that's a challenge for me as a leader is asking those questions and encouraging people to go back no let's have another look at that. Let's understand why that person for that decision was an okay decision. What signals have we sent to them through our leadership or through our systems that led them to think that decision's Okay. If that's what it is. If it's a decision that let's say let's think a bit deeper, but it's really hard because the easiest thing to do is sign the bottom of the in incident report. Go. Yeah, that one's filed, you know. Let's move on to tomorrow.

[00:18:19] Fantastic description of how use questions to sort of delve in and really unpick those contributing factors. Having that questioning style, obviously has been really helpful for you and for those that are working with you around understanding what are the things that are contributing.

[00:18:35] I see my role as challenging people to think a bit deeper. Well, certainly when I think that we need to we need to look a bit deeper. But I just I don't want to be the person who's telling them, because if I tell them, they're just going to go and find what I tell them to find. Whereas if what I want to do is challenge their I think it's like, well, can you think about this a bit more or in my ideal world that the truck driver or the loader operator or person actually doing the job exposed to the hazard, in my ideal world, they've got control of that job and that hazard to be able to make that assessment at the time when their in the best position to do that. So for me, we need to encourage that through the chain of command, or whatever you want to call it, to me if we can get everyone thinking the same way in Golden Stars case 2000 people thinking that way and looking out for each other. It's got to be more powerful than me directing the general manager, directing me, the mine manager and so on.

[00:19:28] So you talked about accountability earlier as being a significant challenge over the course of your leading around safety. What other significant challenges in relation to health, safety and wellbeing have you encountered and how have you gone about addressing it?

[00:19:45] Now, right now, we're in a very transformational time in the industry in total, but the mining industry in particular. So I think safety is moved from kind of absence of injury in to a much more holistic how to how do we take a leading role in sort of the wellbeing of the whole person. And things like mental health very much fall into that. And next to that, you've got a whole transformation happening around automation, electrification, remote operation, where we're going to need in 10, 15, 20 years, we're going to have a completely different skill set in the industry. So, yeah, I think a big challenge and I've become more aware of over the last few years is a poor person wellbeing question. I think one of the most critical things that we can do as an industry and I'm pleased to say that we're slowly moving down this path, diversity will have a massive impact on that. Having a bunch of 20 something year old males on a mine site, all of a sudden, all of a sudden you have a more gender balanced workforce. You have a more diverse work force in general in terms of ethnic backgrounds. Sexuality, whatever it might be, age, all of a sudden you'll get different conversations and you'll get different styles of thinking and different better communication, I think. Things with Golden Stars we've now we've just appointed our third female director gets us over that kind of 30 percent threshold. Now, we've got a lot of work to do in the organisation, it starts to change the conversation and the way people communicate and the group think ultimately you're gonna get better communication and better decision making. Just through that, one aspect of changing the diversity balance in the industry.

[00:21:30] Having that diversity of thinking and what those people are bringing to the table or to the organisation is going to have a positive impact.

[00:21:39] It can't help but have a positive impact.

[00:21:41] So what about metrics? How important do you think they are, you know how do you use metrics? What do you think are some of the common pitfalls around using them?

[00:21:49] Look, I think I see metrics as a really important engagement tool, probably comes through in what I've said already, you know, I've sort of got people centered approach. I think people like feedback. I mean, I prefer positive feedback. Even negative feedback gives you the opportunity to go think about how you accept that and what you do with it. So feedback is really important. So metrics are a really good way of giving feedback. Traditionally, we've looked very much at the lagging indicators. You know, it always used to be. Now, this is one of the changes I've seen over my 28 years is, you know, we've gone from looking at lost time injuries and lost time injury frequency rate and days since last, you know, lost time injury to, you know, we are probably at the stage now where recordable injuries are the focus. So those injuries that impact on people's ability to do the job that we've gone from LTIR to TRIFR and I'd like to see before I retired, all injury frequency rates are, you know, we're really we're starting to look at all of the kind of cuts and scrapes and bruises and how we change that trend. I think that's a shift that we're making in our industry, certainly, which makes a good shift. But the leading indicators are incredibly important in terms of your safety interactions and hazard reporting, near miss reporting, closing out incidents in a good time frame, corrective actions closed, audit scores, all of those things are really bought and really good feedback for people. The number one pitfall I've seen with that is where we go, oh yeah, we've got a really good safety management system. We're scoring more than 90 percent on all of our audits. We're good. And that can lead to complacency. So again, it's about balances. It's really good measures, making sure that, you know, we're not just ticking the box and going yeah, we're getting all these hazard reports, but really kind of digging in and finding the best ones. Just relying on the system is, can lead to complacency. So keeping that balance between people's accountabilities and measuring, giving that feedback.

[00:23:36] What I really liked about what you're talking about there is that idea that it's the conversation starter. That metric provides to you to dig in further. To look at some specific areas. Great example of how you use it to build on what you're doing well and and continue to do more of it.

[00:23:53] One of the managers that I worked for a while ago used to used to say, oh, be careful what you ask for, 'cause you just might get it. When you kind of distort the system, when you measure something, you know, you can't you can't manage what you don't measure, but then you can distort the system by asking for a specific thing. And then, you know, people will tend to if that's what they get rewarded for, whether or not a pat on the back or the positive conversation or whatever it is, and that's where they will tend to go and focus. You got to make sure that you're asking the question and tweaking the question and what you were asked, what you want, what you're asking for, what you're going to hold people accountable for. That's the journey of continuous improvement cycle, of making sure that we don't just go, oh, yeah, we've got a good system. It's okay. We're actually raising the bar day in, day out.

[00:24:35] In 2018, Golden Star Resources commenced a major initiative to enhance their workplace safety, including the development of a safety vision and strategy and safety plan and my understanding is that as part of that initiative, you had over 300 leaders, complete the leadership empowerment development training program. I'm interested in your take on this initiative. How did you demonstrate the principles you've learned during leadership training and while going about and implementing this initiative?

[00:25:03] It started well before I got involved with Golden Star. It's a great program. We've still got a long way to go. it's important to recognise it was born out of a pretty dark place where we suffered a double fatality. The incidents itself, without going into all the detail, was made worse because the people involved had kind of realised that they'd done the wrong thing. So then decided not to report exactly what had happened, and that led to some pretty tragic outcomes. It was a massive wakeup call and there was all sorts of contributing factors. Right. So it was a it was an operation that Golden Star had taken over. So, you know, the challenges of integrating another culture and another business into your culture. And, you know, if I look at our two mine sites today, we've got one culture is more advanced, more mature when it comes to safety leadership than the other. We're working hard on the other, but it sort of speaks to those challenges and it was a really big like a call that a culture wasn't quite right in it, that the openness, the transparency around the accountability, the empowerment, it wasn't there because people felt like they had to try and sort of make this situation okay as a massive effort, massive investment by the company to to really try to engage frontline leaders. And the thing I like about that and resonates with me is I think your frontline leaders in any organisation where any industrial organisation where you are dealing with the level of energy sources that we're dealing with in mining or construction or manufacturing, frontline leaders can have the biggest impact. They contact the most people, they have the most contact. What they see or don't see, what they challenge or don't challenge will have will have a big impact on the team culture. Absolutely. You've got to get the top leadership team culture right or the frontline leadership will never get it. But the frontline leadership has the biggest impact. The first thing I did when I started was actually do the course. Just so I had an understanding of what it was about. And the thing for me, it kind of aligns to my kind of people centered approach, tries to give supervisors and skills around communication and around feedback, around establishing expectations and taking feedback from their teams as well. Like I said, we've got a long, long way to go. We've got changes in the company leadership, got challenging operation to try and get into a good stable position. So it's not easy. But again, it comes back to doing the work every day, having the conversations, whenever I have the opportunity to be onsite, to get underground or get into the plan. Talk to a few people. Let them know that, you know, I’m aligned. And that's why it's important to me as a senior leader in the business.

Pearls of Wisdom

[00:27:39] So what still worries you about safety wellbeing? How do you personally keep safety real?

[00:27:44] It's about communicating with people. It's about questioning things. I mean, I used to say to my team in Tanzania. Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't get to be Mr Universe by not going to the gym every day. You've got to go to the gym every day. If you want to build those muscles and you want a really positive safety culture. You have to get out and you have to engage in it and you have to empower people to deliver it. Sometimes you're not going to get 100 percent right. Even in those circumstances, you need to say, okay, what do we learn from that? What can we do better tomorrow or today? And keep going. It's a journey. And like I said, you know, we've got we've got two operations in Ghana with Golden Star, one's probably more mature. There are serious hazards that can do serious damage. So we need to we need to make sure that we keep working at it.

[00:28:30] It's great. That's a good line. You need to keep building a safety muscle. I think that's one to incorporate into our lexicon. I think.

[00:28:38] Yeah. And make sure it's part of, you know, don't forget leg day either Liz. You got to make sure that you're putting all the muscles in unison. You know, you don't want to just build the mirror muscles.

[00:28:48] Yeah, of course.

[00:28:49] You've got to make sure you're looking after the whole again, the whole wellbeing safety and health and, you know, environment and community and productivity, you know, they all work. They all work together. So you've got to you've got to make sure that you're finding that balance again.

[00:29:03] Yeah, of course. Wow, there's been some incredible pearls of wisdom in all of those stories. Thank you. If you had to have your time over again, is there anything you would do differently?

[00:29:14] I think I would get better at understanding incidents and incident investigation and feeding that back into, you know, what I've done as a leader. You know, I think I've taken the easy way, the five minute approach sometimes where, you know, you drop into the ego centric model and you go, yeah, yeah, that person was there. Yeah, they should've known better. Bang, job done. Yeah, I would get better at that. You know, you touched on it earlier, getting people involved in the definition of what a good safety culture looks like, getting them involved in what those behaviours look like. I think if had my time again, I would do more of that and just keep talking to people and being clear about what it is that you're trying to achieve.

[00:29:56] What advice would you give to Executives of the future as to how best to demonstrate visible leadership and health, safety and wellbeing to the people that work for them?

[00:30:05] Just get out there and have conversations. I think that's the best thing you can do. That way you're getting constant feedback and that's important. And if you're talking to people and people are comfortable talking to you, then you're getting real feedback. So the more you can get out and talk to people and listen to people and dig one level deeper, the better you'll be able to manage in total, I think.

[00:30:26] Brilliant, fantastic. So finally, in one word or phrase, what does safety mean to you?

[00:30:32] Planning the job well, executing the job well, getting it right first time as often as you can. That's what it is to me. It's not something that's outside of what we do everyday. It's something that's integral to what we do. And if we're doing, if we're planning well, executing well, we'll have a really productive, high quality workplace. So that's what it means to me.

[00:30:54] Brilliant. Thank you, Graham. It has been absolutely brilliant conversation. Love the thinking that you brought to our conversation and the stories and really appreciate your time today.

[00:31:05] Thank you.

[00:31:06] I've enjoyed it Liz. It's been good to reflect on 20 something years of involvement in managing safety, leading safety.

[00:31:13] Fantastic. Thank you.

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